At 08:20 PM 7/12/1997 +1000, Caroline Seawright wrote:

In Japan, mukoyoshi (where the husband is adopted by the wife's parents,
so he takes their family name) is seen as rather unmasculine thing to do.
So no way will Nodoka let Ranma do that - she'd rather have him commit
seppuku than take his wife's name - she wants a MANLY son, remember!

But she's got a less mainstream concept of masculinity.  This is someone 
who thinks spying on girls in the bath is "manly" while everyone else thinks 
it just means "loser", remember?

But she's also got the normal concept of masculinity, too. She just
adds on a few weird things ... After all, just like anyone else, she
thinks that Ranma, running around in girls' clothing, is unmanly...
but she thinks that it's okay for a guy to do whatever ecchi thing
he wants with his iinazuke ... but she also thinks that a guy, staring
into a mirror and posing, is unmanly. Well, that's a normal thing to
think, too! ^_^

Not if he's checking to make sure his outfit is manly enough!

Nodoka thinks normal unmanly things are unmanly. It's just that she
thinks some strange other things ARE manly, on top of it.

Okay, I think I get it.  So if it's something "unmanly" that lots of guys 
do, she disapproves but if it's something "unmanly" that only girl-cursed 
guys can do, she accepts it?

Plus, families sometimes even disown the men that marry into a girl's
family, or are treated badly by the family.

And another point - Ranma is an ONLY son. If Ranma _was_ to do the unmanly
thing and be adopted by Souun, so becoming Ranma Tendou, what will happen
to the Saotome line? Somehow, I don't think that either Nodoka OR Genma
wishes to kill off the Saotome clan.

They seem to be young enough to have more...besides, who says the clan

Genma would be about 40 ... Nodoka, maybe 37... I think that that is
passed the age for women having children in Japan ... But, even so...

?  I thought they get menopause roughly the same time the rest of us do.  
Thirty-seven is a bit young for that.

See the way Nodoka acts around Genma? She dislikes the guy, or at least
doesn't really care about him, any more. Why would she go to the bother
of trying to have more children with a dispicable person like Genma,
anyway? Ewwww!

Maybe she really wants a cute little baby panda?

depends on Ranma?  Maybe he's just a tiny little twig on the family tree.

If it didn't, then it would be the one to carry on the name who would
be the heir to the musabetsu kakuto Saotome ryuu. And unless Nodoka
has had some very shameful and dishonourable children, then there is
no-one else. (If Genma had some illegitamate chlidren, it would be

Who said they'd be illegitimate?  What if this is Genma's or Nodoka's second 
marriage - then there would be other children who don't have this problem.  

Or maybe this could explain Genma's weird deals.  It seems like he was poor 
for a while and maybe had to either arrange Ranma's engagements or give him 
up for adoption to keep the baby fed.  Maybe he did an engagement deal 
because he regrets doing adoption instead, for G&N's previous baby?

the woman who's stuck with the shame and dishonour, and the poor
child would be stuck knowing it all the rest of his life, even if he
gets adopted by someone else - it's VERY dishonourable in Japan, and
it dirties the name of the family of the woman who bears an illegitimate
child.)

Also, if there were aunts, uncles, cousins, etc, they would have got
together or been mentioned in the manga. I mean, spending a new year
without the family?!

Takahashi never said he didn't have a whole bunch of Saotome cousins who 
could carry on the family name.  What if we don't know about all his aunts 
and uncles because they're just too embarrassed to admit they're related to 
Genma?

They'd have kicked Genma out of the family, unless they were all like
him. So it's very doubtful that there are any more of the Saotome clan
around.

And if there WERE others, why did Genma own the clan household? There's
no way he could have afforded, or even made, that old house with the
way he steals things.

?

That was the clan household?  I haven't seen that part of the manga yet, so 
I didn't know whether or not the Saotome house was a normal one or something
else....

But Ranma is still an only son - there's no way that the parents would
stop their line of the family and let it die out for no reason.

The Tendou family still has two more daughters. If someone WAS going to
marry into the family, it is the eldest daughter who marries a man to
take on the family name, not one of the other daughters.

Unless Soun decided to modernize the tradition a bit and engage Ranma to 
whichever daughter was least incompatible.

Which he didn't do... if he was that modern, he wouldn't have done an
omiai for one of his daughters.

A bit.

There's no way that Ranma would take Akane's family name, due to honour,

Honor - what about filial piety and all that?  If his dad agreed he'd marry 
Akane and change her name, then is it honorable or not for him to do that?

Genma would never agree, because that's suicide for _his_ family line.
And since Genma has no honour, anyway, there's no reason for Ranma to
do what his father says. His mother is another story - and she would
definately not order Ranma to do such an _unmanly_ thing.

On the other hand, it's not her family line (unless Genma did mukoyoshi).

masculinity, carrying on the family clan, and because the youngest

Hmm...what if he becomes a Tendo but A&R name half the kids Tendos and half 
the kids Saotomes?  That way the clan doesn't die out but just skips a 
generation.

I have to wonder why bother with all that mess anyway? IF it could be
done, which I somehow doubt, why go to all the hassle? It's pretty stupid
to take someone's family name so you can inherit, and then throw your own
children out of the inheritance by giving them to some other family which
isn't your own any more!

There are lots of ways to deal with this mess - hyphenation, handing down 
two surnames instead of one (like in Spanish), never changing your last name 
in the first place (like in Iranian), handing down your first name instead 
of your last (like in Icelandic)....

But it just wouldn't happen... Ranma would never take Akane's name,
because of his ego, etc, and he wants to be seen as a man as much as
possible - taking Akane's name would just show to the world that he's not
only a girl in body (some of the times), but he's a girl in his heart, and
that _Akane_ is the man in the family!

Good point - would Akane refuse to do this because it would make her look 
less feminine?  Or would her ego demand that she keep her name?

Can you imagine Ranma, the macho jerk of Ranma 1/2, doing something so
womanly? I know that I can't. O_o

I can imagine him doing much more feminine things.  Remember my fanfics?

daughter of a family is one of the least likely to take the husband into
the family - especially since she'll be one of the first of the girls to
marry. The Tendou family still have two more daughters to go, remember!
So there's no way that Saotome Ranma would become Tendou Ranma!

Hmm...did Japan have primogeniture (in England this meant only the first 
son would inherit the family estate to keep it from getting split up again 
and again over generations, and the other sons got nothing)?  If Japan did 

No, all the family members should get equal, but it's equal - as long as
you are male.

Oh, okay.

But all the responsibility goes to the eldest boy. He has to look after
his parents, set up all the family get-togethers at new year, etc, and
carry on the family business... which means that Ranma would carry on
the martial arts school, and that his wife (Akane) will look after Ranma's
parents, set up for obon and new year, etc, etc, etc...

the same thing then this means a younger brother could still inherit by 
becoming some other father's only son.

That's why a younger son could go take a girl's name, since he may not get
a part in the business, even though his share should be equal. Though if
he DID go take a girl's name, it's a shameful thing (well, it's seen as
that by a lot of people), and so he'd be thrown out of the family anyway.

?  You get thrown out of your family if you leave it for another?  Doesn't 
that make it a moot point anyway?  I thought it's like getting deported for 
deciding to emigrate.  I'm confused now.

But since Ranma isn't the younger brother, and since he doesn't have

Well, you could say he's the youngest....

one... there's nothing to be said about it. Maybe Genma and Nodoka ARE
able to have children, IF they still want them ... but who's to say that
they'll have a son? Who's to say that they'll have a child? It's all ifs,
and why risk a family line because of a maybe?

I meant something more like, "A few years later A&R are still enagaged and 
still yelling at each other, then G&N rethink the details after they get 
drunk and accidentally have triplet boys" or whatever.

So the whole deal makes sense for Soun if he really wants a male heir, but 
not for Ranma since he has no older siblings.  Unless there are other 
Saotome kids floating around somewhere that Genma and Nodoka forgot to tell 
him about....

Somehow, I doubt that there are... it's all very silly to say that there
are! If there were then Ranma would have been with them on the trip - or

Of course it's silly!  But that's okay!

I guess you're taking the "Takahashi didn't say it did happen, so it can't 
fit" approach and I'm taking the "Takahashi didn't say it didn't happen, so 
it can fit" approach.  No problem!

Nodoka would have taken them along to meet Ranma ... unlss they're
illegitamate, then it all turns very nasty. ;p

It would be nastier if they were cannibals, though.

Good points, though.  Hmm...what if you make an honor-bound promise to do 
something dishonorable?

If you're honourbound to do something dishonourable? Then there's no
honour involved, ne? But I guess it all depends who you are ... if
you are Genma, then you just don't care what's honourable and what's
not... If you're Ranma, then if it's your father telling you to do
something, you tell him to go jump off a cliff. ^_^

Cool.  Whatever.

But I just can't see what Ranma would get out of taking Akane's family
name. He'll get the dojo anyway, as there's no Saotome-ke left for him
to take Akane to ... and he'll lose his position as leader of the
musabetsu kakuto Saotome ryuu ... Akane will still be the heir to
the musabetsu kakuto Tendou ryuu, not Ranma... and Ranma loses out on

Weren't the kids supposed to inherit both?  I thought that was the point.

his own mother, as well ... he'll have to be in the position of looking
after Souun instead. Plus it's unmanly. What are the things that Ranma
_would_ get out of taking the name Tendou, other than what he's going to
get anyway?

It's shorter.  His children would spend less time penciling in bubbles on 
all those standardized forms.