On Tue, 02 Dec 1997, Matthew Lewis <maybeso@ican.net> wrote:
At 12:21 AM 12/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
Always nice to hear from you on this debate topic.
On Mon, 01 Dec 1997, Matthew Lewis <maybeso@ican.net> wrote:
At 08:56 PM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Matthew Lewis <maybeso@ican.net> wrote:
Perhaps we should rename this: Stimulating Conversation on
Theories of Ancient El Hazard Civilisation....
Then again, maybe not
At 11:30 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
<A bunch of stuff which I hacked off>
The OAV series leads me to believe that Ifurita's restraint system was
absolute, not being able to be broken by her: it was Makoto's power that
did it. Still, the possibility does arise that some might have been able
to: damage on the battlefield for instance might have burnt out the
appropriate circuit.
I was thinking more in the lines that Ifurita and the other demon's
of her generation were built with superior Restraint systems as a result
of
earlier deisgns of demon's being able to overcome their restraint
systems.
If the origional designers beleived that their programing was the
definition
of how the demon would always act than any restraints would just be
failsafes, and it would have taken a rebellion for them to take them
seriously.
Possible, but the legends refer to Ifurita as a singular demon god,
making a distinction between her and the others. Hence, my view of her
as a
prototype, and most likely a new generation
I take the same view, however I am looking at her as a prototype who's
design potential wasn't recognised. Otherwise there would almost
centainly be
other production models. The military mindset doesn't lend itself to
relying
exclusively on a single weapon.
I saw it as just a case of her being thoroughly field-tested, but depending
upon the amount of time she had been activated, this could actually be
unrealistic.
Well it's mainly a question of how much of Ifurita's ability you
interpret as being pre-programed into her and how much you feel is the
result
of Experience. I am fairly strong on the experience side because I feel
that
if whoever created her could have programed that levil of skill into her
they
would have also been able to program her personality with an overwealming
desire to obey orders which made the restraint circuit a unnecessary
redundancy.
Works for me. I find this to be a believable scenario.
Indeed, like I said earlier it's a personal beleif that if her
programers were good enough to give her that kind of ability, the restraint
circuit wouldn't have mattered because her personality would have been
designed
with no capacity to WANT to disobey orders.
It is concievable that at the start she had no desire to disobey orders,
but as
she grew, she "gained" that ability.
Interesting to note that in the OAVs, it isn't really stated that she
wants to disobey orders. She does not believe it to be possible, and dismisses
it out of hand (right up until the point Makoto frees her from Jinnai's
control).
Reminds me of something I heard about elephants (how, when young, the
trainer will
chain the elephant to a post; the elephant is unable to break the
chain/rope. After
a while, the elephant gives up. When the elephant becomes an adult, even
though it
could snap the rope quite easily, it does not, because it cannot concieve of
the possibility of it breaking the rope. Similarly, Ifurita cannot concieve of
disobeying orders. She may not like them, She may wish she did not have to,
instead
preferring non-existence, but she obeys them anyway). A much more devious
way of
control really, and less likely to be broken.
Excelent point, It's a subtle piece of work reinforced with two
seperate controll aspects, the Controll circuit, and the need to be recharged
with the Staff (Which she can't do herself.) Thus Ifurita has three seperate
restraints against independant action, If the earlier generations had grown to
the point where they could overcome an inherant desire to obey orderes, this
kind of redundancy and precaution would make sense.
Another reason there were no other Ifurita units could be because,
albeit
they are powerful, they might not be cost-effective. To expensive to
mass-produce,
or perhaps the techniques used to build Ifurita could not be translated
into terms
of mass-production easily (needed very highly-skilled technical people to
oversee
every step).
A possibility I just thought of....
That is a very reasonable prospect, and to enhance it, there's the
question of how much combat experience it would have taken for Ifurita to
really make use of her potential. The military would want weapons that
would
be able to win the war NOW not after three dozen big battles. Especially if
they were really expensive.
They probably did intend to use her, they just didn't get the chance.
After all, they put a lot of effort into security, and I doubt anyone
expected
the Eye of God to be anywhere near as devestating as it turned out to be.
I suspect the reason she was sealed was because they were saving her as
a final option. They were sure of her restraints, but A, there would have
been
hostility toward the demon's from the rebellions, and B, they probably
considered the development of human manerism and behavior the main reason
the
older demon's broke their restraints, and it would have been the off time
that
helped that develope those aspects. Look at Aliens, specifically how the
rest
of the marines act toward Bishop. You put a demon in contact with others
and
they will start treating it with at least some levil of cameradery.
Sealing
Ifurita was a step to make sure that didn't happen.
Could work. Gives a better reason for her storage as opposed to
destruction
besides humans sometimes just aren't logical.
B) I can see this. In fact, that was why I had her sealed away in my
story,
she was developing an emotional response, and they were worried about how
it
might affect her performance/she might break her restraints. Thus, she was
stored
for further study.
Of course, this only works if the demon gods rebelled. My history does
not
have that happening (although it does have a rebellion of sorts. You'll
have to
wait for the next in the series to find out who/what though. I don't
believe in
giving out spoilers ^_^), although again, there does not seem to be
anything in
the OAV series to preclude this from happening.
Well it would provide a background fear and hate on which Ifurita's
legend could grow.
Basically like I mentioned in the initial concept, two or three
generations before Ifurita was created, someone started using semi-organic
technology to construct the brains of the demon gods. They didn't
completely
understand it but it improved performance so much everyone had to follow
suit
or get knocked out of the arms race. The trick is that at first no one
realised that the demon's could grow mentaly to the point where they could
go
against their initial programing. So any sort of extra restraints besides
that
programing were extremely crude and weren't given much thought. And since
it
would have taken time for their personalities to grow enough to start
rebelling, it wasn't till they were building Ifurita's generation Demon's
that
they saw the need for restraints.
Look at Ifurita. They would have naturally constructed her initial
personality to serve without question, however they also added a seperate
circuit which forced her to obey (And presumably never harm-observe Ifurita
hitting Jinnai to prove her freedom). And in adition to that, they designed
the power key staff as an aditional rrestraint because she would have been
incapable of maintianing her own existance on her own.
Who's to say that the CPU's are semi-organic. Have the brains work at a
quantum level (nanotech computers perhaps? They'd be pushing the physical
limits
of the universe for speed; extremely powerful and able to hold an astonishing
amount of information-- very dense storage medium) for instance: something
where
randomness plays a factor. There's a veritable storm in our brains, which is
extremely chaotic (rather ordered when high on cocaine for instance, though.
Interesting, yes?) and for higher/abstract/independant thought, these brains
would probably be similar in that aspect.
Of course, I like the organic/semi-organic brains for them. Hell, I
even
used that idea myself. Just saying that there are other possibilities,
thass'all.
I like the organic part too, perhapse I should have said that whoever
had integrated aspects of the human brain to create a new inteligence system
with the capacity to think creatively. And while the design wasn't completely
understood and it's detracters complained about it being uncontrollable and
unpredictable, it was such an improvement that everyone had to use something
similar or get trampled by the rest of the arms race.
Just as a throwaway idea (feel free to use, I doubt I will in the
forseeable future at least), does anyone else think there should be a
fourth priestess? We have water, fire and air, but according to the four
classic elements, should there not be one for earth? Domain would
probably
have something to do with memory, enduring, something like that (each of
the priestesses seem to embody the characteristics applied to each of
the
four classic elements they are connected with).
Perhaps the fourth user is not a priestess, or not of Mt. Muldoon a
least
(maybe in another land?). Dr. Schtalubaugh could be the fourth one (he
preserves knowledge as Dean and caretaker of the Royal Library).
Just a thought, if anybody is interested. Like I said, I doubt I'll
be
using it in the future (for one, I haven't decided who I would have for
the
last element-- I'm not including wood, which is often in Asian
cultures as
an element because of the more Arabian feel to the series, so I'm
sticking
to the four classic ones). Too much right now. Working on part 2 of
oracle,
of this series (Bugrom are next!) another El Hazard historical fic (the
Phantom Tribe, before and after they came into El Hazard), and of
course my
OMG one. Oh, that and I really can't think of a story for the
controller of
the earth element (what would she/he use? a ring like Mishtal? lamps
like
Mann or Shayla? I see a different name for it for some reason).
Well Earth is a little different from the other elements, I think
that an earth sage's power would probably take more the form of strength
and
durability, perhapse the catalyst would be a set of bracers or gauntlets.
I can see that, although the durability coincides with endurance....
Bracers or gauntlets are a good idea, although I think bracers might be
the
better of the two.
Well, still won't be using it, not for a long time at least.
Although if there was a forth office who's resident was lost, then the
priestesses might have some trouble if the Earth catalyst were found.
Especially if they bonded to a proper applicant, who needed to be
trained in
their usage. Naturally there were no records of what sort of training
that
would be so the Muldoon trio would have to improvise. Hmm if the bracers
were
found and bonded with Mr. Fujisawa, suppose they enhanced his strength to
uncontrollable levels? To the point where they started geting him to
drink so
he wouldn't level buildings with the force generated by neglegant gestures.
While strength would probably be a big part of the bracers, I see them
as
enhancing endurance, turning the person into a veritable armour-cat, like
Ura,
in their ability to soak up damage. Not to mention the ability to
manipulate the
earth.
Didn't the TV series show something of the priestesses training? Just
because the catalyst alows the use of the power doesn't mean it's
accessable or
controllable without work. And uncontrollable power is not something fun to
watch. For example, the catalyst is found by someone with an afinity for it
who puts it on. They get into a fight, Swords bounce otheir skin, a
minuite or
two later they pick up something wooden and get a splinter.(Ok I stole the
idea
>from Mage: the Hero Discovered where Kevin gets run over by a train and
isn't
scratched, then in central park he gets a sliver off a woden bench.)
I don't know. I've only seen the first tape of the TV series, so I
don't
know about that yet. Besides, one could argue that just because it is true in
the TV series does not make it true in the OAV series, as they are definitely
separate universes, which differ in several aspects (the way they get to
El Hazard being one, and several of the characters are different/gone too).
Still, if nothing contradicts it in the OAV, why not assume it to be true?
Occam's Razor and all that, don'tcha know....
Indeed there's nothing about the priestesses training in the OAV's,
except for Ifurita recognising the combat style that Shayla-Shayla used, (Along
with the fact that she clearly hadn't had much real practice using it outside
formal training.) Still, it feels better for the priestecesses to have been
trained in the use of their catalysts to me.
With the invulnerability bit the sword fight, and later the sliver bit,
well, the artefacts are used almost exclusively in battle in the OAVs (I say
almost just in case I forgot a scene).
Well, Miz uses her ring to sense the presence of an underground river
and to transport herself Fujisawa and Makoto through it. It was part of a
fight, but it wasn't directly combat related. Oh Yeah, and Afera used her
powers to fly.
Still, the powers exhibited tend to be
directly tied to the elements, rather than the personification of the
elements.
It is the priestesses' personalities which reflect the elements: Shayla's hot
and tempestuous nature being the most visible example. The personality is
probably what causes the talent to manifest itself in that form (if Shayla
were
not so fiery, she would have had a different talent, and probably have been
unable to use the Lamp of Fire). Thus, the aspects of endurance and strength
would most likely be personality traits, moral character. One wonders if the
artefacts the priestesses wear enhance these personality traits as well as
their abilities....
There could be a fic, or at least part of a fic, in that too....
Perhaps Mt. Muldoon is somehow linked to the bracers? Created by a
wearer
(the last wearer) of the bracers, to give the other artefact bearers a
refuge
during the days after/during/just prior to the Cataclysm? It is rather
sheer after
all. Maybe a concerted effort of several bracer wearers (it is quite likely
that
there was more than one of each of the artefacts the priestesses now wear.
These
might just be the only ones that have survived, or have been found, since
the
Cataclysm). Now I'm starting to get more than a little fanciful I fear.
Ah well.... :)
Actually there seem to be several such mountains, perhapse some of the
mountain ranges are actually old battlefields where groups with several
earth
shapers fought.
The thought occurred to me too. The whole range could have been made by
these earth masters (well, except for Erlenstar mountain.... Sorry, had to
throw
in the Riddlemaster of Hed reference. Just had to).
My statement really doesn't say that, but I think it does hint/imply
that
idea though....
Reminds me of a partial idea for, well, a nasty fic at least. Once Fujisawa
stops
smoking, his strength gained an increase similar to that when he stopped
drinking.
As such, when he is stone cold sober, what if he is too strong? I.e. he
can't control
his strength. Then, when he's drunk, he of course lacks even more control,
but is still
superhumanly strong (just not as much).
Also, what if his unnatural strength was buring him out? shortening his
lifespan?
Then he would have to stay drunk, or die, as his strength is putting too
much of
a demand on his system.
Nasty thing to do to him though, eh?
Miz wouldn't like it either. Hmm, perhapse the two of them might find
out that sex affects his strength like alcohol and Nicotine did.
Key did that in Makoto's Harem if I recall. The sex thing I mean....
A lemon, obviously....
Matthew "Shortfics are a way of life" Lewis
maybeso@ican.net
___________________________________________________
The Second Question:
What happens when you win?
When your enemies are at your mercy: how will
you act then? Compromise is the temptation of the
weak; this is the test for the strong.
What are you going to do?
-Salman Rushdie, The Satanic Verses
___________________________________________________