Teknos Warhammer wrote:
[Forgive me Tybalt-sama, for I have spammed.]
Oh we aren't at spam yet, not as long as we're discussing a specific
fic. However, I'm going to try my level best to keep this from
degenerating to the level of character debates.
Ranma and Akane are the _villains_ in this fic.
[Now that's a perspective I never thought of.]
Hey good! I would have felt pretty silly if everybody posted, "Well,
duh!"
No, think about it. For over a year they have lied to everyone, whether
they be family or their supposed friends. They have conspired to
decieve and manipulate all those around them in a massive hoax
perpetuated purely for their own benefit.
[And you think they're actually looking forward to it? It even said in
the prologue that they were apprehensive about it all.]
Not looking forward exactly, but they did it anyway. I would call it a
bad thing to do. They might have felt they had no choice, but it wasn't
exactly the noblest of decisions. Lies don't lead to
solutions. (personal philosophy)
[Simple, what if you wanted to live the way you wanted instead of the
way other people wanted you to live? You'd take steps to make sure that
would happen.]
I'm saying that the steps they took led them, IMO, down the wrong road.
[And you have proof of this? I've read through all that's been written
and I do NOT find anywhere saying that she lied to Ryouga about being a
friend.]
Not proof. I just don't think true friendship is possible with that
level of deception (my opinion). She didn't tell Ryouga the truth, so
obviously she didn't trust him and didn't think very much of him.
Besides, he loves her. Ranma has to have told Akane that Ryouga loves
her. How could she have let him go on in that kind of pain for so long
and call herself a friend? A real friend would talk to him openly, even
if it meant risking blowing her cover.
[Well, maybe she does and maybe she doesn't. We aren't in the fic enough
to be tottally sure if she wants to stuff out pig-boy and hang him out
to dry for good. Personally, they're both at fault for lying. Intensity
doesn't matter, a lie is a lie, no matter how big or small.]
Exactly. Perhaps I just foind Ryoga's lie more palatable, because it's
done out of emotion, while Akane's is from cold calculation.
What about Ukyou? Ranma has been pretending to be her friend, but
obviously he isn't. Obviously he doesn't really give a damn about her.
[Like before. You have proof of this?]
He's letting her live in false hope, merely because he doesn't want to
blow his "mask". That isn't being a friend, at least not to me.
To him, she's just one of the faceless "them" that have to be taken
care of so that he and Akane can be together.
[Wrong! I find it illogical that he would do that if the time table is
where I think it is. Also, Ukyou did become one of those 'faceless
thems' when they crashed the wedding.]
Ummm, illogical that he would do what? As for crashing the wedding....
Did you see the movie that came out a while ago, "My Best Friend's
Wedding"? The character, "Jewel" does a lot worse than Ukyou ever
dreamed of, when it comes to breaking up a wedding. Yet, in the
end her friend forgives her.... after they'd cleared the air. Let's
not argue the pros or cons of crashing the wedding. That's wandering
off the story topic. All I'm going to say is that Ranma and Akane are
responsible (in this fic) for perpetuating the situation that leads to
the incident.
In the real series, it's forgivable that Ranma never has a serious talk
with Ukyou about their whole fiancee status. He can't bring himself to
admit in his own mind, so how could he ever tell someone else? Here he
knows he loves Akane and is deliberately stringing Ukyou along, just
because he doesn't want to blow his "mask". That's just very...
non-heroic.
He's intentionally woven a deception for Ukyou that he does not love
Akane. That's what this whole "mask" idea was about in the first place,
yes? He knows full well that the longer he keeps up this deception, the
more hurt and devasted Ukyou would eventually be.
[So, that's why this fic is happening, before it gets even worse than it
already is. I don't like Ukyou, I just pity her.]
He's had a year already. Ranma owes Ukyou more than an explanation. He
owes her an apology. The debt he's built up is bigger than a broken
wedding ceremony, it's a broken heart.
But he's perfectly willing to let her suffer. Some friend. He has
deliberately and with full intentions created a false personality around
Ukyou, apparently never letting her see the real him.
[Because Ukyou would most likely try and take advantage of that so Ranma
would marry her. That's why he created the 'friend' for her. Yet, she
doesn't get the big picture that she is his friend and nothing more, and
that is her fault alone.]
No, remember this is lie-telling Ranma, not regular Ranma. It's his
fault alone. The reason Ukyou doesn't get it is because Ranma has been
actively trying to make sure she doesn't "get it". He stages fights
with Akane specifically to make it appear he isn't serious about Akane!
Can you really blame Ukyou for holding out hope?
I don't understand how Ukyou could possibly use Ranma's "real self" to
try and marry him, or why you think she would even want to.
"Aha, Ranchan just confided in me that he has a deep and abiding love
for another girl. Surely this is my chance to force him to marry me!"
Friendship simply isn't possible when you're constantly lying to your
"friend". The phrase "letting people down easy" doesn't seem to have
occured to Ranma or Akane.
[Like before, you think they're going to enjoy the end result?]
Who? No one is going to enjoy the end results of this. I'll find the
fic pretty unbelieveable if _any_ of these people are ever willing to
talk civilly to Ranma or Akane again. This level of deception is just
unforgiveable. I know if someone pulled something like this on me, I
would never ever trust them again for any reason.
Even Mousse isn't going to be pleased. You see, it turns out Ranma
_has_ been stringing Shampoo along, just like Mousse always claimed!
[Well, if someone interrupted your wedding, wouldn't you be rather
peeved?]
OK, my prejudices might be showing here. In my opinion, this version
(note _this version_) of Ranma and Akane deserved to have their wedding
interrupted. They deserve to suffer from a situation they helped
create.
Let's lay this out piece by piece. Akane and Ranma are putting up an
illusion that they do not love or particularly like each other. This is
a choice on their part, done with conscious intent. Shampoo falls for
this charade, hook, line and sinker.
[Which is Shamps' fault alone.]
Why is it her fault? I think this may be where we are disagreeing the
most. As far as I'm concerned, if someone lies to me and I believe it,
any bad things that result are on the head of the person telling the
lie, not me. Ranma and Akane conned Shampoo (note, I bet they didn't
con Cologne completely). Why is that Shampoo's fault for not seeing
through their snake oil show?
She owes him a debt, and now it's time to repay that debt.
[Yes, but not in a way that Ranma would find rather favorable.]
Yes, but Shampoo _believes_ that is what Ranma wants. What's more,
Akane helped foster that belief.
Face it, the whole wedding fiasco was Ranma and Akane's fault from
beginning to end.
[Oh really? ANd take the blame from the slimeballs that brought them
together? You're making Genma look innocent and I don't like that.]
Ok, fair enough. Genma was responsible for the part of the fiasco
involving the barrel of nannichuan water. I'd momentarily forgotten
about that.
[Care? PAH! The only thing that Shamps and Ukyou are concerned about are
themselves. Ukyou with her Genma-approved lie to her dad and Shamps with
her zealousness to continue the tribe. Kuno and Ryouga are no different.
Kuno wants to maintain his 'superiority' by thinking that he can have
whatever he wants, despite the promises that even his stinkin noble line
can't override. Ryouga is just determined to take Akane away from Ranma
because HE thinks that he's unworthy of her, and thinks he too can
override the promises made by the panda and the human waterfall.]
OK, I can't let you slander poor Ryouga here. IIRC correctly, he had
_no intention_ of interfering with the wedding. He was just after the
barrel of nannichuan water. He had already accepted that Ranma would
marry Akane and had moved on with his life. What's more, he deserved
that water. Ryouga had the worse curse of the series, and he needed the
nannichuan water the most. Don't stick Ryouga in with everyone else.
I won't argue about the rest, because that's just a character debate. I
wiull say that I think you're being unduly harsh about Shampoo and
Ukyou. Don't you think they care for Ranma at all? Not even a little?
[Well, maybe it's a little something called turnabout. You are
completely ignoring the fact that everyone else was trying to run their
lives for them with Genma promises, backward traditions, delusions of
grandure, and just plain ignorance. If you think that the others are
completely innocent, I wonder what the heck ramsey you're smoking.]
Not innocent perhaps, but Ranma and Akane are acting out of malice
aforethought. Remember, the charcacters in this fic are very different
from the characters you know and care about. These versions of Ranma
and Akane are slick manipulators who will apparently scruple at no lie
or manipulation to gain their goal.
Sure they would have been taking a chance if they had been open, but
that openness would have benefited everyone. Their selfish deceit
benefitted only themselves. Instead of being the man and boldly telling
people they couldn't run his life, Ranma chose to feed their delusions.
You shouldn't feed the delusions of others if you aren't prepared to
live with those delusions.
[Like it says in the Prologue, it doesn't look like they're enjoying
this at all. They're scared of when the cycle will end. They know that
it will not go peacefully, but if they want to live their lives the way
they want to, drastic measures need to be taken.]
Through more trickery and manipulation. Even if their plan results in
all they wanted, I'll still have no great love or respect for _these
versions_ of the characters.
Also, notice that Ranma and Akane have taken the active role in this
fic. They're the ones with the plan. Most often it is the _villains_
in a story who have the plan, the need to mold the world to suit their
own desires. It is the hero's role to stop the plan and keep everyone
else from being manipulated to the villain's ends.
[Oh really? Ever heard of x/1999 by Clamp? The Dragons of Heaven are
more than determined to save the human race from the Dragons of Earth
because the DoE want to erase the human race. Yet, from the DoE's
perspective, the human race is a bane to the planet Earth and life in
general was chosen over mankind. So you see, the lines of Good and Evil
are not so clearly cut as one would think. ]
That was pretty clear cut to me as a human being. I don't care what
happens to the earth if humanity can't benefit from it. Or to put it
another way,
"Earth first! We can get around to strip-mining the other planets
later."
Anyway, please don't defend these characters just because you like them.
These aren't the charcters you like. They're different. This Akane
just isn't the kind, basically sweet girl with a temper and lovable
insecurities we know from Ranma 1/2. This "Cut Wood" Akane is colder,
more of a manipulator. I just can't think of this Akane as being
"sweet".
All I'm trying to say is that the actions Ranma and Akane have been
taking follow a certain pattern. It's very similiar to the patern
villains often take in stories.
[What if there are no villians? Or heroes? Just two people trying to
secure their own future from having it being run by other people. And
people with the common sense capacity of a bull thinking that they can
just control the destiny of another.]
I'll admit Ranma and Akane might have good intentions (for themselves),
but you know what the road to hell is paved with. I just think they're
going about things in a way that is fundamentally morally wrong.
I'm also not sure where you get this "run their lives" stuff. The other
charcters are trying to run their own lives. They just want (Ranma
mostly) to be a part of their lives. Until they recieve a clear and
unambiguous "no", (such as Tatewaki and Kodachi have), they have a
perfect right to keep trying.
Remember, Ranma and Akane have conspired together to make it seem that
Ranma is still available. Why shouldn't the others try and court
him? (now you can argue that their methods are completely wrong and I
won't disagree with you.)
Remember, unlike the regular series, Ranma and Akane have deliberately
left the door open for Ukyou and Shampoo to pursue Ranma.
Right now, they have the plan and are so far ahead of everyone else, it
isn't even funny. Traditionally, it's at this point that a hero would
step forth to start untangling their web of lies and expose them for
what they are.
[And make Ranma and Akane miserable? Then who'd be the villan then?]
See I don't know. It just seems like there's a web of deception and
trickery around. Seems like a shame not to have someone out to discover
the TRUTH.
[It won't happen. 1. Ryouga's (hopefully) just go on with his life and
go to Akari. But considering this is Ryouga, it's unlikely. 2. There's
about a snowball's chance in a volcano that he'll believe the truth
because he's been led around so many times he can't even believe the
truth, only the lies that he percieves to be the truth and that is his
fault alone. Whether we like it or not, the truth can hurt severely. The
difference between a fool and a wiseman is how they accept it.]
It isn't his fault alone. It is Ranma and Akane's fault alone. Like I
said, if I had someone tell me lies on that magnitude, I would never
ever forgive them. If and when he finds out the full truth, I expect
he'll want to hurt both Ranma and Akane!
The original premise of this fic was that "martial artists aren't stupid
people". It's an interesting idea, but why is it only being applied to
Ranma and Akane?
[We're only at the second chapter for crying out loud! Maybe we're not
there yet.]
How many chapters do you think there are going to be? Anyway, unless
the authors are planning one mother of a surprise, I would think we
would have see some sign of it by now. It's been two very _long_
chapters and a long prologue.
The premise just doesn't make as much sense if Ranma and Akane are the
only ones wearing "masks", and everyone else is the emotional and
intellectual cripple they appear to be in the normal series.
[Because we are not that far into the story yet. Only the author can
answer the endless amount of questions we readers have.]
Like I said, it's been two really long chapters. If we haven't seen it
by now, I'm beginning to doubt we will.
As I said, a differing view.
[And an interesting view it is. Akane and Ranma as the baddies. Neat
idea.]
Thanks. Always a pleasure talking with you, even when we don't see
eye-to-eye on everything.