On Sat, Aug 22, 1998 at 02:51:22AM +0000, Gary Kleppe wrote:

Nicholas Leifker <nightelf@thekeep.org> wrote:

An understanding which is not perfect - nor can it be.  This is where the
problem lies, Gary; you are human, but put yourself up as some sort of
authority over characterization.

Nope. I put myself up as a person with an opinion.

"Who are you, and what did you do with the real Ranma?"

You evidently decided that the Ranma in that story wasn't the real
Ranma.  That takes some authority.

"Get rid of this Ukyou is Ranma's Best Friend BS." (or somesuch)

Correction -- a person with an opinion and a real lousy attitude.

Now, in Sydney Kyle's fic, "Akane and Ranma", Mr. Kyle portrays Ukyou
as Ranma's best friend.  Again, there's no real proof either way.
(But again, however, there are reasons why she might be, or might not
be.)

There's strong indirect evidence that she's not, and I know of
absolutely no evidence that she is (I've challenged people to come up
with some).

Right now, I seriously wish that my manga collection wasn't in boxes.

Indirect evidence is precisely that - indirect.  There's also a lot of
evidence (again, indirect) out there that she is; for instance, the scene
where Ranma and Akane help out at the Ucchan.  Even if it hadn't happened,
why would they feel so close to her that they would help her keep her store
running?  There's also the shrine that the three of them helped out at, as
well as the Tsubasa episode - all of which tend to show some sort of
familiarity between not just Ukyou and Ranma, but Ukyou and Akane as well.
I could probably name more, but I'm sorta between lives at the moment.

And you are setting up the same straw man that Zen did. I never said R&U
weren't friends. I said I didn't see any indication that they were BEST
friends.

Keep that in mind.  You said that you didn't see any indication that they were
best friends.

You're twisting words here.  Do you want me to go through my archive and
start citing examples of where you criticize other people's
characterizations?  One very recent case where you go "Who are you, and
what have you done with the real Ranma?" comes to mind...  and that wasn't
one of Zen's works either.  In other words, you're misrepresenting the
truth.  Zen may be the only one you constantly criticize; however, your
reputation for criticizing others' characterizations has brought you into
this argument - one that I haven't responded to in two days.

Zen is the only one who's characterizations I criticize often. Thought
that was what he meant. Yes, I do make OOC complaints on the list. Deal
with it. 

What was I saying about lousy attitude?

You want to have your cake and eat it too.  Sorry, doesn't work
that way.  Pick one or the other.

First of all, from your criticism of Mr. Kyle's fic, one could easily
get the impression that you think that something shouldn't be shown in
a fic unless it can be conclusively proven. (ie. Ukyou and Ranma being
"best friends".)

Oh, bull. I have NEVER advocated this kind of Guy Under the Bridge
stance, and I'm on record against it. BTW, why weren't you up in arms
over Gubby's criticism of Lawson? Because it didn't unvolve Ukyo?

Well then, Mr. Kleppe.  Please practice what you preach.  You railed
against the Ranma and Ukyou thing above, then deny you ever use it?

Um... no. Pay attention, please. :-)

GUB's position as stated is that any characterization that's not
directly supported in the canon is OOC. Mine is that a characterization
that *contradicts* what we know about the characters from the canon --
without a believable explanation offered -- is OOC; and I might complain
when I see such a thing.

To quote what you said earlier:

And you are setting up the same straw man that Zen did. I never said R&U
weren't friends. I said I didn't see any indication that they were BEST
friends.

So what's your complaint?  

According to you, there's only indirect evidence about the Ranma/Ukyou thing.
I've seen the evidence you've given; _every_ _single_ _piece_ of it has
perfectly reasonable alternate explanations.

Therefore, _nothing_ in the canon is contradicted.

According to you, that's not OOC.

So, I must ask again:  Why were you harping on Kyle about it if it wasn't,
by your own definition, OOC?

Y'know, you're starting to remind me of the main character of A Telltale
Heart.

-- 
  -Sean Connor (sec@softhome.net)

    The day Microsoft produces something that doesn't suck is
    the day they start making vacuum cleaners.