[FFML] Re: [Fanfic][Sailor Moon][Tales of the Senshi


Allyn Yonge wrote:

I'm having troubles with my Yahoo account so I'm trying Netscape for a  
while. The old address is still good however.


You'll have to forgive me then.  I'm not exactly sure of your old address, and the blind bat that I am, I do not see it mentioned in this message. ^^

My comments @@ 
I'm going to be using things I learned at the  
"Seminar for really serious writers" at A-kon.


Cool.

WARNING: I learned (among other things) that 
I'm not being tough enough as an editor. Professional 
editors _crushed_ writers at A-kon. But boy did we 
learn things to improve our writing. I'm C&Cing as


This is a good thing to a certain extent.  I have no plans on making this my life's work, and I will not obsess over it, and so I am content refining my own style and making a gradual improvement.  This is not to say your comments had no merit.  They most certainly did, more than you know at present, but that will become a bit clearer as we go on.  There is a...limit I think would be the appropriate term.  The kind of C&C you're mentioning, the kind from professional editors that would make a professional author cry "More, mistress!" that's something that should probably only be solicited if asked for.  However, there is also a limit to weak writing (and this fic was quite weak), and that shouldn't be overlooked either.  There is a third problem here, however, and that's sort of what I was hoping to use this story to point out.

if this story were going to be submitted for  
publication. If you're only writing for fun,  
then you don't want to read any further.


I only do this for fun...no self-respecting publisher would ever take a chance on anything I'd write.  No telling how much money they'd lose.  Then again, they keep letting Piers Anthony write, so what do I know?

As always, comments are IMO only and should 
NEVER be taken personally. I'm talking about  
the story, not the author. I'm also NOT a professional 
editor and have yet to be published (though I've got 
a story headed off to Asimov's SF ^_^) so 
keep that in mind while reading. And finally, if you 
don't like the way I write fiction, then my C&C is going 
to be of limited value.


You might want to take your own advice about self-depreciation.  We're all quite humble here...then again we kinda have to be, considering we haven't created anything.  We're just borrowing already completed ideas and applying our own egos to the context.

@@@@ 
 
 
 
 
Tales of the Senshi 
-Only Human 
 
Authors forward: Is this a series? Kinda. I don't really expect it to follow 
any sort of linear continuity, though the parts of the story will eventually all 
fit together as I get around to writing them. I make no excuses for the 
disharmony, and take full responsibility. I don't know...it just feels like 
this story wants to be told in this disjointed way. Maybe it'll make sense to 
all of us in the end. Or maybe I've been staying up too late. ^_^ 
 
@@NEVER, NEVER NEVER!!!! pre-judge your writing.  
If you don't like it, why should anyone else! Please let the story  
stand on it's own. I promise you that there are plenty of people 
in the world ready to say bad things. :( 
@@@@


Prejudge?  No, I was simply making an obviously bad joke about the fact I was going to be jumping around the time line with this fic, with no rhyme or reason.  If you want self-depreciation, you should read the forwards on Morgan Hudson's fanfiction.  There is a guy who could write a college text on it. ^_-

Disclaimer: Sailor Moon belongs to Naoko Takeuchi(sp?), and whomever else it 
belongs to. It's certainly not mine, and that's probably a good thing, to be 
honest. 
 
@@Keep the disclaimer simple and to the point.


It don't get much more simple than that.  I usually give the author a bit of leeway on these little bits of literary play; some are quite amusing to read.  Don't get me wrong, some are just plain long winded too...and anything that takes up half a written page needs some serious trimming down...or maybe put in it's own separate chapter under 'author's notes' or something of that nature.

He stopped. 
He finally stopped. 
The monster, the demon...no, this was no ordinary demon, this was a Demon 
General, far more powerful than any simple drone soldier, had led his pursuer on 
a merry chase. From rooftop to rooftop of apartment buildings and convenience 
stores. Through back alleys and across busy intersections. Into parks and 
around what passed for houses in this city. Halting here, in this abandoned 
factory lot, he paused, and then smiled a fanged toothy smile. The one who was 
his hunter dropped down from the decaying steel and concrete of the derelict 
chemicals factory whose very foundation still stank from whatever had seeped 
into them during its time of life. 
The general imagined how it would look to their mutual pursuer. 
 
 
@@POV was not clear until this line. I assume it's the General's 
Point of View ( POV)? 
You haven't give me any idea of what the General looks like or what 
he can do. Simply TELLING me that "this was no ordinary demon" doesn't 
work. Your narrative is bland and slow. DETAIL. Give me sights, sounds 
smells. Let me see the emotions of the General. Is he enraged? Afraid? 
Tired? 
 
EXAMPLE: 
Reinforced concrete exploded under the impact of his landing as he raced  
desperately across the 
Tokyo skyline.  Gasping for breath, hearts pounding he halted finally in  
an abandoned factory. 
Staggering between two buildings his pebbled grey skin changed to match  
the inky black of the 
shadows, except where his tough hide leaked viscous yellow fluid from a  
jagged tear that ran from 
his right shoulder to his midline, almost amputating one of his secondary arms.

Ah, but first off, the demon doesn't breath. Second, the demon isn't wounded. I know, it was only an example; bare with me here a sec. I didn't give him an appearance from this point of view, because quite frankly the general doesn't really care. He cares only where he is and who is following him. However, in that context, you are correct...the description is decidedly lacking.

There is a reason for that.

I wrote this story in about twelve hours. No bake time whatsoever. Didn't take the time to find a prereader...didn't spend a few weeks going over the lines of text finding what to add or discard. I just mixed the ingredients, stirred a bit, and then tossed it out to the FFML to see what would happen.

Oh rest assured, the fic WILL be baked...the final product will be quite different. I would never let anything like this just lay in a tangled heap of twisted bloody limbs (hmm...need to find a new analogy, I'm getting too fond of this one). At present time, this fic is so alpha it's little more than stream of consciousness. In this case, pure story...if you will. It doesn't have the little decisions, minor and major tweaks, running through the prereaders that make this fic something that is truly a joy to have created and have read.

In fact, I'll skip the rest of this, since it's all just symptoms of the same problem. No refinement of the product, whatsoever. I will note, that most of what you mention below concerning characters should most likely have been placed within a separate article addressed to everyone (which I see you did in fact do later) because quite frankly, it makes you sound like you're treating me like someone who hasn't notated most of the problems you mentioned below in both his own and others fanfiction...many many times. Which is quite strange, since you also mention that the fic doesn't sound like me (as a matter of fact, it doesn't, but I think it's obvious why at this point). This tells me you've read my fics before, and if so, why then do you treat me like a five year old vice going "What the hell is wrong with you, K'thardin! You have done better, and I KNOW you can do better! What were you thinking?! Look at all the problems you've got in this fic!" I know it wasn't meant as anything personal, but it is a bit out of place. It's a whole article on problems that abound in even the most advanced fanfiction; some of which I agree with and others I do not, but still something which should likely be shared with everyone, and not just one guy who had a bad day, or in this case a guy who was trying to figure something out. And again, I see you did that, and that’s a good thing.

So what was I trying to accomplish? I was wondering what would happen if a proto story, something almost purely story, were tossed out into the FFML. What would people think? Would people even know? Were people even READING what I was writing, or did I need to quit posting here because it was a waste of time? Were my, and other fics, getting overlooked, or subsumed under the deluge of fics who have...the other problem? All structure, but little to no substance of merit inside. Honestly, I think we are. Then again, I only received your response to this, and one other so far, which is a treasure trove of to me...and to actually get C&C...priceless. My last Pretty Sami fic received no responses regardless it was the penultimate chapter of the epic and was fairly well received going at the start. Eternal Heavens is my most ‘popular’ story, but it only drew maybe two responses from the last chapter as well. The first was your basic “Cool dude. Write more.” And the other...the other was a gem so rare, I’d wind up writing thirty chapters and posting them here on that alone. Yet, either I’m really bad, or something else must be up, because I’m seeing fics with pure structure and little palatable substance getting thirty or more public responses PER CHAPTER, when a fic really needs both to be considered memorable.

I mean, we have people who are writing about Ranma and Hotaru getting together in a way that's been done dozens of times in Ranma Saotome fiction, and Ranma Saotome crossover fiction, ("Oh uh...you, know Akane went psycho hose beast on me, so I guess I love you." Right.) And I see responses out the yinyang for each and every chapter of that. It's certainly well written...well, aside from the bits of OOC concerning everyone, especially Setsuana, but that's only part of the problem. Technically, it's a very well written story. The meat inside, however? It's pretty tasteless. Hardly imaginative, as it's been done many many times, cheapening the characters of both Ranma and everyone else to turn it into a 'charming' love story which isn't all that charming, moves far too quickly, and stretches the bounds of credibilty to unbelievable proportions. And people are lapping it up, when you got gems like "Nuke 'em 'til They Glow" and "Ronin Summer" that are both imaginative and well written.

Another example is the Ranma vs the Blue Gender fic. Well...the monsters are like the Blue Gender anyway, aside from their transdimensional capabilities. It's singularly well written, and includes appearances from many anime, but when all is said and done, Ranma Saotome vs. some monster race has been done quite well a few times before. Also the crossover elements don't really even need to be there, as the presence of Ranma Saotome, who is near deified (also quite typical of this sort of fic) submerges all other mythos present within his own importance. This is done far too often in his own series, and more often than not in any crossover, which cheapens both the characters of Ranma Saotome (and the characters in the Ranma story...assuming you see them at all) and the characters he's being tossed in with. I've got nothing but respect for the author of the fic I just described...I can only wish for half of his technical skill, but the actually story is a boring and typically cliche Ranma Saotome fic. Is this a bad fic? Certainly not, if you enjoy reading more of the same...or if this is the first Ranma fic you’ve stumbled onto. In that context, it’s going to be one of the best reads you’ll ever be treated to. However, I personally grew really tired of such things REALLY quickly, especially when I read imaginative works like "I'm Here to Help" (a Sailor Moon fic...of the kind you just gotta sit back and go “Whoa” to), "The Darkest Hell" (a Tenchi Muyo fic...really good especially the 'movie' chapter), and "Duet of Pigtails" (a Ranma/Rayearth crossover). Note that last one only REALLY shined when they got off the Ranma/Hikaru thing, and focused on the other characters...showing everyone that the story was really a story, intertwined with individuals and situations all their own. This showed a whole greater than every other sentence with Ranma's face in them.

Yes, I only mentioned Ranma. Well, his particular problem is most blatant in his fics, and easy enough to make an example out of due to the shear enormity, so most people will know to what I'm referring. These are just two...of SEVERAL that have this problem.

Considering people on the list seem to be enamored of fics with near perfect writing and cool characters, with somewhat stale plots and clichéd characters, I was honestly wondering what would happen if something that had a bit of the opposite problem were thrown out there...assuming my fic here even qualifies as 'good and imaginative.' At the very least I've not seen it done before (and if it has been, direct me to the fic so I can read, heh).

And you know something? It's not the fact people are doing things that have been done before...it's the fact they are doing them in the SAME way, making the SAME mistakes and using the SAME tired fanficed hero and villain worshipped clichés. Then there are the ones that get the characterization, situations, and even the expected clichés as defined by the original source material down in an original story that are just flat out ignored as it doesn't fall into the norm that people are used to.

Honestly, I'm glad you saw the problems inherent in my fic. It renews my faith that maybe there are others I don't know about that aren't looking for the next episode of Usagi and Ranma saves the world. Maybe some can see past the pretty lights and already established 'cool characters' and gaze at the story underneath.

Don't worry. Baking of ye ol ficcage is still in order, this wasn't written just to see what would happen...though it did work for that purpose.

But then you know, all of the above is really just amounts to my opinion. I could be wrong. But who knows...maybe I'm right. At the very least I hope it makes people think a bit.

K'thardin
"One shall stand, one shall fall."
-Optimus Prime